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CSC World: Have you been studying that as part of the GoodWork Project?

Gardner: Yes. The GoodWork Project began explicitly with a number of us who came from very different political allegiances who agreed that it didn’t make sense to have everything in a society measured by its dollar value. So we did in-depth interviews with more than 1,200 people from nine different spheres, mostly classical professions but also areas like business and the arts, to see how those who were thought to be good workers managed to be ethical despite these pressures.

CSC World: In a recent interview with Harvard Business Review, you said it was in business where people find it hardest to be ethical. Why do you think that’s true?

Gardner: There are two quite different reasons. One is that business is by definition not a profession. The professions have explicit ethical guidelines and means of punishing people, such as disbarment, for malpractice. These ethical standards are higher than legal standards because you can get kicked out of a profession even if you don’t do anything illegal. Once you turn to occupations that aren’t professions, like business and the arts, ethical behavior is voluntary because there aren’t any widely agreed-upon standards. 

The other reason is that in business there is so much attention paid to the bottom line every quarter. There are enormous pressures on people to do things that will make them and their stockholders richer, and make them richer right away. We now have a situation where people think your merit is based on how much money you have. That’s what we’re finding out in our interviews with Americans, especially with people under 30.

CSC World: Speaking of people under 30, in Five Minds you said you found that many young workers felt that good work was a luxury they could not afford until they had “made it.”

Gardner: I’ve been very surprised by two things. One is how cavalier, even defiantly cavalier, they can be about ethical issues such as cheating and plagiarism. “Everyone lies on their resume,” they tell me. The other thing — and I haven’t written about this because I haven’t figured it out — is that this attitude exists in kids who are also doing quite admirable things in their communities. 

CSC World: Let’s move on to more positive aspects of business. In Changing Minds, you said that linguistic, interpersonal, and existential intelligences were well-developed among business executives. Can you elaborate?

Gardner: That’s true of leaders in general, leaders being people who get other people to change their minds or their behavior voluntarily. Often they do so by formulating powerful narratives which they themselves embody. Think Lincoln. Think Margaret Thatcher. Narratives require a mastery of language. If you want to convince other people, you have to understand them, and that requires interpersonal intelligence. The best public speaker I’ve ever seen is Bill Clinton. I think that’s because he has such a good understanding of the various ways that people can hear what he says.

Existential intelligence is a little more controversial. When things are tough, people want to know what it’s all about. If they’re going to make sacrifices, it has to be for something they value. In those situations, the ability to paint broader pictures about life become very important. If your job is just to make the trains run on time, painting that broad picture would be seen as inappropriate. But if your company is under severe pressure, you need to have these broader narratives that are meaningful to your audience. 

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